Figuring out the words: The Seth Godin interview by Rachelle Money, 12 February 2008
Our reporter Rachelle Money managed to connect with Seth Godin - probably one of the most famous and prolific modern marketers - in a cab on the way to LA Airport at seven in the morning. Author of ‘Permission Marketing’ and ‘The Idea Virus’, Godin has just published his latest book, ‘Meatball Sundae’ and so he’s a pretty busy man.
Key points
- Story-telling is important in modern marketing but you've got to remember that nobody learns everything all at once. The story has to begin with something compelling enough that you want to learn more - the story must unfold. The mistake marketers make is that they tell all the story at once, take it or leave it.
- A perfectionist doesn’t do things quickly, it takes them too long to shift. It is better to be very focused on doing the best you can quickly and then later fix it to make it better.
- SEO is not a black art. It's often clients who want shortcuts rather than hard work that are the problem. The best SEO is great content and if you don't create that you won't get search engine traffic.
When you wrote Permission Marketing did you know it would be such a success?
"I would say I have no idea if what I am working on is going to succeed. I assume that it’s going to reach some people but I am insecure and neurotic enough to be sure it will fail."
Do you ever re-read your books and think, that could have been better?
"Sometimes I’ll read something on the web that someone is quoting and I don’t know that I wrote it. I will be reading it and saying to myself, wow this is pretty good and realize it’s something I actually wrote."
You seem to have a real passion for story-telling - where does that come from?
"I don’t think I spent a lot of time telling stories until I wrote All Marketers Are Liars. The inspiration for that book was the political campaign because I saw how effective storytelling was for some politicians, and how it messed up others."
How can someone tell a simple story which keeps someone interested in your product?
"Nobody learns everything all at once. The story has to begin with something compelling enough that you want to learn more about the story. The mistake marketers make is that they tell all the story at once, take it or leave it. People need to realize they have to ensure a unfolding dialogue."
Are there any companies out there who you feel do a good job at creating this kind of dialog?
"If we look at Richard Branson and what he has done with Virgin, on the surface the story is almost trivial, but when you get deeper into it it becomes more rich and evolves. The idea of having a masseuse so they can give you a massage in first class is on the surface a story you don’t even know about until you’re on the plane. But then it gives you something to talk about once you get off the plane and that dialog becomes a commodity."
You are renowned for coining phrases now used widely by marketers, how do you come up with them?
"The way creativity works for me is that I work very hard on establishing the boundaries, making a nice level area for my ideas to live. Like in Permission Marketing, it only took me a minute to come up with it, but it took six months for me to release it. When I coin these phrases I want to have a word to explain a phenomenon but the word is not always obvious. It can take a long time to figure out."
"I am not a perfectionist. I think that I am very focused on doing the best I can quickly and fixing it to make it better. A perfectionist doesn’t do things quickly, it takes them too long to shift."
People look to you for inspiration and direction - do you feel under pressure to come up with new ideas?
"I do it because I want to do it. Every time I am interacting with the outside world I’m thinking about why that interaction happened, whether it was a good one or a bad one. In the same way that people go to the movies and think about whether they liked it or not, that’s how I am looking at marketing - why did this work or why did that fail?"
Do you come from a family of entrepreneurs?
"I started my first company when I was 12. We sold computerized astrology reports and when I was 16 I started a ski club and I never really looked back. I've always wanted to do this."
"My father owned a factory in Buffalo in New York, and my late mother ran the store at the museum, so I grew up in a very independently-minded house."
Why is it so important for you not to make mega-money out your ideas?
"I really don’t remember the time I decided to go down this path but every time I do it it makes me feel better. Ideas that spread win. The only reason I do what I do is because I enjoy watching them spread. Charging for them brings it down."
How does the little guy spread an Ideavirus?
"If you type Ideavirus into Google you will find it. The idea is that it’s not that simple - if it was then everyone would do it. There's actually a lot of thought and time going into doing it without holding on to sheer luck. The principles are universal and that’s what’s unique about this medium. There are only a few companies that can use television commercials or radio commercials, but spreading ideas is working for everybody."
Is online marketing becoming too competitive for a marketer to do well in?
"Almost everyone is mediocre at it, so if you can be good at it then you will provide yourself with plenty of opportunities."
What can newspapers do to become successful online businesses?
"Newspapers are going to go out of business in the next ten years all around the world. There are two problems in the United States newspaper industry. One is that you make a living from cutting down lots of trees, making the paper and hiring trucks to deliver the newspapers to stores. That’s not how information travels anymore."
"The second problem is that newspapers make their money from classified ads. Now those ads work better and cost less online so I think there’s no question that there will be organizations like newspapers, but they’re not going to be in paper form. The sooner that people who make newspapers realize that and get into a different business the happier they’re going to be. They need to concentrate all their efforts online."
What’s next?
"The next book is out in two weeks - Meatball Sundae - and it’s about collision between the internet and traditional marketing."
In the past you have called SEO a 'black art', but is there a good way of using these tools?
"My position is that the clients are the problem, not the consultants. That's because they want shortcuts, not hard work. The best SEO is great content. Don't do that and you don't get much.
Social Networking sites are incredibly popular - what are the benefits of this new medium, and is it set to continue to rise in popularity?
"Social Networks - if you try to glue a brand on top of a social network, you get a meatball sundae. Once again, the networks make it easiest for those who actually have something to say."
To find out more about Seth's latest publication visit;
Meatball Sundae at Amazon.co.uk
For more on creating great content have a look at the Wordtracker Academy web content page
About Rachelle Money
Rachelle Money is a freelance journalist based in Scotland, UK. She graduated from the Scottish School of Journalism in 2005 where she was awarded an internship with two national publications - The Sunday Herald newspaper and The Big Issue magazine. Rachelle has been working with Wordtracker since August 2007 and is a regular contributor to the newsletter.
65 comments
Hi Rachael Thanks for sharing your interview with Seth Godin. Look forward to reading his new book. Cheers Paul
Hi Rachel, well done with your first article. I ahve always been a fan of Seth Godin, after reading your article I'm going to buy the book!
Seth,
I was working away at creating some great SEO otherwise known as great copy at a local Starbucks when I couldn't help but interrupt the gentlemen sitting next to me.
They worked at a local newspaper and were whining and complaining about how the internet is putting them out of business.
I handed them my business card and re-affirmed what they were saying, the internet IS going to put the newspaper industry out of business unless they adapt quickly....very quickly...call me...let me show you how...
They did call, they continued to feel sorry for themselves and are continuing to work away at doing what they do no matter what to succeed.
Now remind me again, what's the definition of insanity???
Yeah, that's right! Exactly what the newspaper folks are doing, trying the same thing and failing repeatedly
Pertinent questions well put, Rachael
Excellent reading Rachael. I would add one point about social networks. In my mind, they are great at sourcing 'sneezers', the kind of people who will spread your idea virus. Get good at locating sneezers who fall in love with your business and you may not be able to stop your popularity. Just my idea.
Hi Rachael,
Great interview with Seth Godin. I'll be picking up the book just soon.
Terry
Hi Rachel,
Welcome, and well done. Seth Godin says some very insightful and pertinent statements about SEO, and you crafted the article elegantly.
Cheers, Vi
Hi Rachelle, and welcome to the WordTracker team :)
Good article, and 1 point Seth made in particular really resonated with me:
clients "want shortcuts, not hard work"
Man alive, how true is THAT statement! :)
These days, I seem to spend half my time trying to persuade clients that there ARE no shortcuts EXCEPT to do it right in the first place.
They waste so much time, energy & money on trying to cheat the system that they miss out on the benefits of doing it right, just because it's wrapped in a little (or sometimes a lot of) hard work!
In my case, this applies both to SEO & Adwords work. (take note anyone hiring me - I don't "do" shortcuts) LOL
I also liked what Seth said about perfectionism. He's right - a perfectionist doesnt do things quickly, whereas doing your best now but being willing to adjust & improve once you see the results is always going to be a better way of doing things. I think I heard it best many years ago from someone who said you can't push a wet noodle uphill - just get started and THEN correct as you move!
I'm loath to say something nice about Microsoft ;), but that's been one of their strengths over the years. Of course, in their case, it's also backfired on them as well :) Oh well, who knows - one day they'll get it right in version 1.0 (and then the I.T. world will collapse in shock no doubt!) LOL
Anyway, once again welcome Rachelle and I look forward to more from you (and can u tell the WT folks to start trying to capture a bit more Australian-centric data in their systems :) it's a BIG weakness for us when using WT, cos its US/UK centric data).
regards
Eran Malloch Perth, Western Australia
Rachelle, Your interview quickly hits on some important points about SEO and the future of paper newspapers. Good job. The common thread between some of the comments in your interview is the connection made by great content between the provider and the reader. The downside is that future news readers won't have the visceral pleasure of a hands-on experience with a natural material. It is an intimate and personal pleasure that will soon be lost to future generation. The upside is we will still have natural materials in their intended forms to maintain environmental balance. But no matter the medium, connecting with people was, is, and always will be about uniques, captivating storytelling about relevant ideas. --Ken
Once again a well respected guru tells it in plain English and once again reinforces the 'write great content' mantra. I particularly liked "My position is that the clients are the problem, not the consultants.......snip". Pure gold.
d
Hello Rachel - THANKS for the interview. Those key points are excellent reminders.
Great article. The end was especially powerful as I am in the web development and SEO field:
My position is that the clients are the problem, not the consultants. That's because they want shortcuts, not hard work. The best SEO is great content. Don't do that and you don't get much.
I couldn't agree more. There is no substitute for great, frequently updated content.
Great content can be built, promoted and found (or not!).Quick fixes are hard to come by. I agree with Godin's comments about shortcuts - there is no substitute for hard work and incremental advances.
Seth is right, the newspaper industry will fall, the question is how soon? I don't think they even have 10 years with how fast the web is growing and gaining new traffic. Great article!
wow rachel good job with your first interview, really enjoyed reading it and i am also in the process of hiring some journalist for my website www.myinvestmentbuddy.com, i hope i get some good ones like you. Really enjoyed reading the interview not very long yet covered almost everything.
In a prior life (recently retired) I assessed technology trends. While many in this thread forecast the death of newspapers, it should be noted that technology adoption surprises many while technology dissolution gets little notice. The facts are the things do not disappear as fast as expected (check out mainframes). So while the business model of newspapers is threated, there are some things that will not change: a significant part of the population will want the touch and feel of the paper; a significant part of the populace will not adopt to the Google reader or other similar devices; and some people will want the local gossip in a comfortable form. Having said that the business model for papers must change as advertising and classifieds will not generate the revenue needed to keep operations the way they. Other value propositions are needed such as building interactive media links between the physical and digital channels. The digital is better at the quick deployment of information while the print model remains for most the better channel for insight and introspection analysis. So paper will morph but their near term demise is not nearly as evident.
Great writing and interviewing, Rachel. You really captured the way Seth Godin thinks. Thanks for passing on Seth's valuable insights to us, the readers. Keep going, Rachel. Sue Brenner, author "The [N]aked Desk"
Great article, Rachelle! It's nice to hear Seth Godin reinforce that "the best SEO is good content."
Looking forward to future articles... :)
Cheers- Heather
Hi Rachelle,
In a random survey, out of 9 commenters who mentioned your name (not including myself) only 3 managed to spell it correctly, while 6 didn't. What does this tell us? I really don't know :-)
I enjoyed your article and always enjoy hearing what Mr. Godin has to say - thanks.
Hello Colin (the dooginator, comment number 3)
Thanks Rachelle for the interview. Your questions for thoughtful and as always Seth gives us lots to chew on.
Hi Rachelle, Nice interview. Looking forward to reading more of your articles.
Excellent interview of the "ObiWan" of the marketing world. (Of course Dan Kennedy is the Yoda of the marketing world.) I thought Mr. Godin said a bunch of truths without revealing too much. I would have liked to seen a more detailed answer to the question of how the little guy can market online better. Oh well, better luck next time.
God Bless!
ELMO
Thanks for the interview. I like the part on how you should tell a story to draw people in.
Excellent article with superb content...I've been in the printing industry for 20yrs and it wasn't until recently that I truly understood that I'm really in the advertising business (go figure). Content is King and Keywords are the Throne...
Thanks Raja
Glad to know about the theme of your newbook; I didn't know about it before I read this post. I am looking forward to reading it.
Cheers, Pradeep
Seth always seems to cut to the chase, what clients want to be and what their audience refers to them as are often different. Navigating that is the path is the challenge of an SEM professional. I am looking forward to the book.
Steve
Excellent article. Seth's interview is a great example of what he teaches...tell a story,give some examples but not too much information. Now I have to buy the book. Do you think that was his intent? ha ha.
I would like to see a book from him on a detailed path to writing great content for a physical products store.
Ray
I also really enjoyed the article. I agree that the most important part of SEO is great content. It also helps keep people on your site if it's written well.
Great job, Rachelle. Thanks for the great article--loved the questions you asked, and "hearing" Seth's answers and a glimpse of his thinking.
Welcome to the team!
Ben
Great interview. I'm looking forward to his book.
MauiNick
Hi Rachelle!
It is so nice to note that WordTracker has hired an own ( and good ) journalist. Great!
Seth Godin is a king on his area and I'm really waiting to get his book. Thanks for the interview!
Juhani Tontti
Hi Rachelle Great interview with a fascinating, very Zen, man. Thank you G PS Given your obvious beauty I'd have thought more people would concentrate on getting your name right - for future commentators it's Rachelle...
Hi Rachelle,
Welcome. Hope you're enjoying the new job.
Not sure why you bothered with the interview, it could have been culled from a press release - same stuff and a little hype for his new book.
"Clients are the problem" I'll guess that he's a consultant.
Good content will prevail? Here's the test: are there others who say the same or stuff that is more useful than Seth Godin yet don't have the same following? My guess is that there are. Having read lots of marketing books his stuff is far from unique (and at one idea a book it's not exactly gripping). Get attention, position yourself: all this is marketing standard. Seth is a master at marketing (himself), new content? Not a lot.
I think the mistake is to believe that popularity means quality (Seth is popular therefore he must be insightful or have better things to say). Happy Birthday I don't think is the world's best song: there is more to quality than popularity. It doesn't hurt your guru status to confuse the two though, as long as you're popular.
Evan:
Interesting comment. Marketing is essential to much that happens as it is in fact survival on an industrialized level. I noticed that Seth alluded to the need to tell a story and develope interest in order to deliver any target message to an intended audience. This message could be to adopt a belief, desired behavior, etc. Your site is interesting. The article about stress seems too rhetorical.
The main casue of stress is the perception, whether real or imagined, that a certain stimulus that is unpleasant or repetetive is beyond our conscious control.
We can tolerate all manner of stimuli if we can do something to control it, but given a situation where once again we either have no control or believe that we have no control over such stimuli we suffer the highest level of decompensation in our response, behavior and subjective perception of discomfort; thus the perception of stress.
I enjoy this forum and hope to find the right combination in my online pursuit of retail sales.
Thanks Seth and Evan. Ron outdoorsportselectronics
Thanks for an excellent intro, Rachelle...although I bet it would be even better to hear you podcast it in a wonderful Scottish brogue.
I'm in awe of anyone who gets an interview at 7am! Actually, I'm impressed by people who can speak logically at 7am. So kudos on this intro piece.
I love Seth's books, especially Purple Cow. However, I don't much like his comment: "Newspapers are going to go out of business in the next ten years all around the world."
My favorite thing to do on a Sunday is lay low and read all the newspapers we get. I will be very sad if his prediction comes to pass.
Many thanks for an informative article Rachelle. Not a bad scoop for your fist assignment! My wife works in marketing and is a big fan of Seth Godin, I am always tripping over his books in the house. I am going to buy the book and hopefully I will get some ideas how to optimise and market my new website, or hopefully some useful contacts of companies Seth recommends that can do this for me. After reading the book I can then give it to my wife as a present and know doubt it will soon become an addition to the obsticle course she is currently creating in our living room! (After gaining great knowledge from the magificent content of the book of course)
Alan
Rachelle nice article.
I have already read ‘Meatball Sundae’ and it is still sitting on my desk. Seth Godin has very interesting ideas which will stimulate a lot of thought about the "old" and "new" marketing ways.
Good luck in your new job
Good Job, Rachelle! Having read all of Seth Godin's books except the new one, I take great delight in passing along a Godin reading list to new clients, who, for the most part, dive into the stack and re-emerge understanding what I am saying to them. Also, clients reading Seth Godin books buys me a bit of time :) Can't wait to read "Meatball Sundae"! Nice to read eveyone else's posts too. Tina
Rachael, I am looking forward to your future articles. Excellent content is rare. Seth is extremely proficient at it. I have been reading his articles and books for some time. They are the highlight of my day. Your work is an extremely pleasant surprise.
Thanks, Pamela
That was an excellent interview Rachelle. Gave me a fantastic idea for my newsletter (serial case studies of successful Clients) and I grabbed a bunch of perfectly wonderful ideas to stick on my cork "thinking board".
I so want to hear from you again! Thanks!
Thanks Rachelle, for this interview with Seth Godin, the internet marketing guru. This interview highlights a number of points on seo and web marketing. Seth is right to say that everyone is looking for shortcuts here and almost everyone is a mediocre here on internet. Seth has clearly pointed out that good contents and informative website are the best source of success in internet market.
Hi Rachelle,
Thanks for this interview with Seth. Over the years I have been reading Seth I have learned a lot about marketing. Even though I read his blog, I also buy his books ("souvenirs" as Seth describes them) as soon as they come out.
If anyone is not familiar with Seth then I can recommend his blog. Also, have a look on YouTube and Google Video for some of his presentations. His most recent is from a talk to the music business and what they need to do to have a future.
Regards,
Andrew.
really useful stuff.
Hi Rachelle, Great interview and article. When you have time visit my cousin's daughter Sharon Stack who lives in one of Robert Burns houses...Whitestone Cottage, Culzean by Maybole...they have a bed n' breakfast. Keep up the good work.
Rachelle
Polite and informed interview and article which was great. But do you know how fortunate you were that morning.
I would have loved to have been accompanying you on that journey. If only to shake the hand of a 'truly' inspirational guy. The reason I say that is because I stumbled across a few terms that had been ripped off (torn) from some notepad in an old office that was being prepared for new clients that was in August 2000.
Here's my story on how lucky or fortunate I was on discovering Seth !!!
I have no idea who the person was that had either disgarded or forgot to take these pieces. And I mean pieces there was only a few words, and these are all of them. Outsmart, new medium, bootstrapping, internet business , no money down and Seth Godin. Some of these words ie Outsmart, internet business, no money down were the only words that got my interest. The name was unimportant as I focused in on the adjectives and didn't really care for the name at the time.
I arrived home and 'Goggled' some of the terms. Hundreds of pages came up for most of the words then I entered 'bootstrapping' and 'Seth Godin' what I found there was a solution to many of my problems on the most effective way to start an online business.
And the rest, as they say is History.
Rochelle thanks for the article, and I wish you a successful future with 'Wordtracker' and the fantastic team they have there.
Neil
PS On 06/09/2002 I bought 'Making Money on the Web' by Seth Godin and have not looked back since.
Great interview, Rachelle, a fascinating read. Nice photo too, are you married ;-)
I was interested in the speculation about the newspaper business. Fortunately newspapers have just what people, google and advertisers are hungry for - content. Adaptability is going to be key to companies whose income is based on "content."
Great interview, thanks a lot
And the rest, as they say is History.
Rochelle thanks for the article, and I wish you a successful future with 'Wordtracker' and the fantastic team they have there.
Neil
PS On 06/09/2002 I bought 'Making Money on the Web' by Seth Godin and have not looked back since.
Thanks for this interview with Seth. Over the years I have been reading Seth I have learned a lot about marketing. Even though I read his blog, I also buy his books ("souvenirs" as Seth describes them) as soon as they come out.
If anyone is not familiar with Seth then I can recommend his blog. Also, have a look on YouTube and Google Video for some of his presentations. His most recent is from a talk to the music business and what they need to do to have a future.
Regards,
Andrew.
I really like Seth information. I have his audio Cd's from Nightengale Connat series and have learn a lot about permission marketing. Good stuff recommend his information. Thanks
Seth, has some great information. I have loved his other programs and think most of the time hes right on the spot.
You know who coded Doom? A University of Florida dropout.
How’s that for social media.
Everything Seth writes is worthy of reading.
Great Read!
Hi Rachelle,
I just read your article. It's a Great and Relevant Interview. Mr.Godin's wisdom is simple and clear: The Content is THE First (and by far) SEO strategy.
Thanks.
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I have been a member of wordtracker for over a year now and I still learn new things every day I read your article. Keep up the good work.
Seth Godin is a king on his area and I'm really waiting to get his book. Thanks for the interview!
SEO is not a black art. It's often clients who want shortcuts rather than hard work that are the problem. The best SEO is great content and if you don't create that you won't get search engine traffic.good nice ,I agree
I manage a number of sites in my job as a marketing coordinator for a mid-size business. I couldn't do as well as I do without the great information that's found on the web. Rachelle, I'm glad to have found this Seth Godin interview. I return to the marketing principles outlined in the interview time and again. I bought the book!
Thank you.
I had the chance to read the book Purple Cow recently and I was very impressed. I look forward to reading this as well. Nice interview.
If anyone is not familiar with Seth then I can recommend his blog. Also, have a look on YouTube and Google Video for some of his presentations. His most recent is from a talk to the music business and what they need to do to have a future.
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Hi Susu,
I recommend his blog also. According to Seth in one of his interviews on YouTube it is one of the top ten most read blogs in the world.
You may be interested to know too that Meatball Sundae, at present, has 57 reviews at Amazon. And 41 of those are 5 star.